Isaiah Thomas has been lovely in the first three weeks of his NBA career, and he blew up on Wednesday as the Kings earned their first road win of the season against the Raptors. Cold Blooded had 20 points on 6-12 shooting and six assists, and the team seemed to play better when he, not Jimmer Fredette, was running the offense. The injury to Marcus Thornton has opened up some time for both Jimmer and Thomas, and has forced Tyreke Evans, the starting point guard when Thornton's healthy, over to shooting guard.
Fredette is struggling in every facet, and the team wasn't terribly successful on offense with the Evans-Thornton starting backcourt before MT's injury. Hence: a brewing call to elevate Isaiah to the starting five and move Evans to two-guard or, when Thornton's back, to small forward. But in my estimation, such a shift in Evans' role and the team's attack is premature.
First, Evans-Thornton have had just two games under Keith Smart, who led a Monta Ellis-Stephen Curry backcourt to a strong offensive season last year at Golden State. I'd prefer to see how Smart's attack with Tyreke and MT evolves before pulling the plug. This assumes, of course, that Thornton is just dinged; we'll know today whether he'll be ready for the weekend games. Going further, Evans has played four pro games under a coach not named Paul Westphal. His entire pro development (or "development") has been run under Westphal. Let's find out if Smart can get the piece into the puzzle. There's not much to lose.
The second part is that while Thomas' play looks more like that of a point guard, he's not appreciably more of a traditional point guard than Evans. They have nearly identical assist rates this season, and Thomas isn't much higher in per-minute assists. Further, Thomas has been prone to turnovers (a 15 percent turnover rate, vs. 12.8 percent for Reke). If you want to see whether the Kings would be better with a true point guard in the starting lineup, you need to make a roster move, because like just about every point guard that Geoff Petrie has acquired since trading Jason Williams in 2001 -- we're talking Mike Bibby, Bobby Jackson, John Salmons (who played some PG in 2007), Francisco Garcia (ditto), Quincy Douby, Bobby Brown, Ronnie Price, Jason Hart, Pooh Jeter and Beno Udrih. I'm not making a blanket judgment statement on the quality of those point guards -- Udrih, Bibby and Jackson proved to be effective, others not -- but there are, every last one, impure guards. There's one exception: Sergio Rodriguez, who the Kings borrowed from Portland, shipped out as fluff in the Landry-Martin deal and who now plays in Spain.
Again, if you want to see how the Kings fare with a traditional point guard in place of Evans, you first need the Kings to acquire a traditional point guard. Thomas isn't that. He's a damn fine pick-up in the late second round, and looks like one of the better bench guards the Kings have had since both Bonzi Wells and Kevin Martin were on the roster in 2005-06. (Rashad McCants was pretty good in 2009.) But tossing him into the fire of the starting lineup for anything other than injury replacement right now seems misguided. (On that injury replacement condition: if Thornton remains out, I think Thomas would be a fine replacement for Jimmer in the starting five, solely because Jimmer doesn't look remotely comfortable.)
5 recs | 120 comments
Flagged!
For unbridled profanity (see Hart, Jason).
section214 - January 12, 2012
Isaiah Thomas should start over Jimmer
But Lil’ Zeke doesn’t have 3 t-shirts the team is trying to sell like a certain overrated circus act.
Muff209 - January 12, 2012 via mobile
On the other hand,
full size banners of IT would cost significantly less.
section214 - January 12, 2012
He We Are of Average Height of an Adult Male in the US
wallywagon11 - January 12, 2012
damn it
Here We Are of Average Height of an Adult Male in the US
wallywagon11 - January 12, 2012
Oz maybe
US I am not so sure
ElRonToro - January 12, 2012
Oz waaaaaaaaay shorter
US is about 5 feet and something like 9.2 inches.
wallywagon11 - January 12, 2012
lol
when you wrote Oz I assumed you meant North Korea
wallywagon11 - January 12, 2012
Like Oz Korean BBQ?
Is it lunch time yet?
SharkKings49 - January 12, 2012
Not really
Christopher Hitchens and others would refer to Wizard of Oz when talking about North Korea (on one hand the whole small leader behind the drapes but also the whole fact that North Koreans are 3-6 inches shorter to South Koreans due to massive malnutrition and starvation).
Good times!
wallywagon11 - January 12, 2012
C'mon dude
I can understand if some people don’t like Jimmer, but to fault the Kings organization for having t-shirts for Jimmer? That’s ridiculous. Regardless of whether you like him or not, people like him and want merchandise. It would be stupid if the organization didn’t have him on t-shirts.
Exhibit G - January 12, 2012
I don't mind that they market him
But when I look at the merch stands and he has more merch than Tyreke or DMC then they’re going overboard a bit.
Remember last year when the marketing staff when overboard with marketing Cousins and the pressure got to him a bit? I see how Jimmer is playing and I can’t help but feel like they haven’t learned anything from last year.
Muff209 - January 12, 2012 via mobile
highly doubt his play is due to pressure from the sale of his jersey
wallywagon11 - January 12, 2012
Not from sales #'s
What I’m saying is the team had high hopes for Jimmer and are trying to make him what they think he could be now. He’s not. The team wants him to be a marketable star and he isn’t he’s a sideshow. At games you can literally hear people buzz when he’s behind the arc and sigh/groan when he drives instead of shooting. He’s a role-player at best getting the mins of a proven sixth man.
Muff209 - January 12, 2012 via mobile
and that player has started two games
due to injury
when we find out the Maloofs are ordering Smart to play Jimmer over IT, I’ll certaintly understand
wallywagon11 - January 12, 2012
I don't think it's that complicated.
Can we make more money off of this kid?
Yes?
Let’s do it.
jveezy - January 12, 2012
You mean drafting him or forcing Smart to start him over IT?
two different things and I would argue that nomatter what guard they drafted in the first round there would be pressure to start that guard over the 60th pick nomatter how many jerseys they sell
wallywagon11 - January 12, 2012
Well Jimmer had WAY more attention last year.
It was CRAZY at BYU. He was taken out of school and had to finish his classes online, because student’s and TEACHERS in his classes were persistently asking for autographs throughout the lectures. All of it only seemed to make him play better.
feelgood - January 12, 2012
I don't think it is overboard
He’s a more marketable star. This is supported by everything we’re hearing from the team store. I don’t have a link handy, but I recall quotes from employees saying they have been stunned by the demand for his jersey and that it has been more demand than they’ve seen for anything in years.
I agree Cousins and Tyreke should be the stars that generate sales, but that’s not the reality right now.
Exhibit G - January 12, 2012
I don't think that's fair ...
… if only because it doesn’t explain the devotion to Salmons.
Tom Ziller - January 12, 2012
The Kings...
…get a cut of profits from his clothing line.
Exhibit G - January 12, 2012
The Kings are hoping "Chin Boobs" takes off like Brian Wilson's beard
otis29 - January 12, 2012
Salmons looks disinterested out there.
I mean even for him. I thought Petrie knew something we didn’t (he’s matured into a veteran leader etc.) but he sets a terrible example.
blknblu - January 12, 2012
Just another of my regular requests that we start Isaiah
This has been my feeling for some time now, though I think my favorite part of IT’s game is the chemistry between him and DMC — some of those dimes last night were silver dollars.
I honestly wonder if IT might be something more special than any of us can see quite yet…only time will tell. You can’t teach height, but you also can’t teach heart.
sj60615 - January 12, 2012
Ya beat me to it, but it bears repeating again:
Slam_Dunk - January 12, 2012
whats funny
Is that once IT has an off game which he will alot of people will say bench him and what were we thinking putting him ahead of JImmer. I feel like we are so quick to crown someone especially after one game. Give it time.. seriously. If IT continues to step up game after game and Jimmer doesnt then yes put him ahead of JImmer but last night was the only night were IT clearly outshined JImmer. Before last night they were pretty much identical in their play. Even if Jimmer has a night like Isaiah did and Isaiah struggles I will still say spread the minutes between them and give them time to learn. Some of you obvisouly have a bias and thats ok but to call JImmer a sideshow or a joke with no skill is a bit off and shows your bias against him especially since hes just had over ten games as a rookie.
mmarcum - January 12, 2012
I have no ill will or bias toward or against Jimmer
except that as a Kings fan I would naturally love to see Jimmer become that PG and a perennial all-star, but I just think Isaiah’s game adds aspects to our offense right now which we are sorely lacking as Jimmer is having difficulty making accurate passes at NBA speed, especially in or around the key. Though Jimmer’s shooting is awesome (I fully expect a breakout 5-5 from 3 game sometime soon) I just think IT is a better fit and creates unique problems for the other team; he seems more mature than Jimmer, and the influence of BJax teaching him how to play that position like he did may well be helping. With Tyreke at the 2 and DMC getting lots of touches thanks to IT’s nolook badass passing skills, I just think we play better, even if IT’s shooting is a net loss compared to Jimmer. Hell, we might even become a good team if we get some decent ball movement.
So far I think Jimmer may well end up at worse a very talented Kyle Korver, but I have yet to see consistent NBA-level distribution skills from him. I think we have to try to win now, break this culture of losing and try to gain a bit of confidence going forward.
sj60615 - January 12, 2012
Plus everything sims and bench_blob said below, which is basically what I’m saying, only better said.
sj60615 - January 12, 2012
I pretty much agree
I guess what I’m saying is its just to early to know for sure if Isaiah can keep producing like this with it only being one game. I hope he can. But until that’s a consistent theme we keep giving them both minutes but moreso to Isaiah with his performance. But with that said I still have hope for jimmer and potentially I feel he may have a higher ceiling than isaiah.But then again I do have a bias as well. Oh and when I was referring to being biased against him I was referring to someone else’s earlier comments above.I think your comments are fair and balanced.
mmarcum - January 12, 2012
IT should start not because Tyreke shouldn't play PG.....
But because we don’t have a SF and Tyreke would be a considerable improvement at that position over anything else on our roster.
nerdninja - January 12, 2012
It would be a smart way of keeping our best players on the court and putting certain liabilities on the bench...
cough Salmons cough
The Guy on the Couch - January 12, 2012
Actually I like the idea of IT, Jimmer and Tyreke all starting
Rather than replacing Jimmer you replace Salmons with Tyreke and run both IT and Jimmer as guards. This would allow a better running game which is the stated preference.
CowbellKings - January 12, 2012
Not a fan of that at all.
That’s exactly what we tried against Portland, and that lineup got destroyed.
UCIrvine kings fan - January 12, 2012
Holy crap!
Would we be small. Jimmer and Thomas would get destroyed by most guard combos in the league
HeuristicLineup - January 12, 2012
Replace "most" with "every"
Shizzo - January 12, 2012
I'd rather they worry more about developing their players in their proper roles
And let Garcia get most of the minutes at the three until Honeycutt (or someone else they acquire) is ready.
otis29 - January 12, 2012
I like it. Reke/Thornton/Garcia
Label them however you want, just keep the ball moving or take a seat.
blknblu - January 12, 2012
(Cisco can help as a floor general, IT gets as many minutes as matchups allow)
blknblu - January 12, 2012
I agree.
I think Garcia is best fit and his energy is good for team. Is he the answer? Heck no, but he is the best we got there IMO.
KingsFanInPortland - January 12, 2012
I don't know that Jimmer has had a fair shot yet.
Jimmer has also had a couple games under Smart and has been asked to be a playmaker rather than a scorer. It is clear that he took this to mean that he should bypass his own offense and defer to everybody else on the court.
I think that this is all really just more of a speed bump, though still a problem, than anything else. I liked that Jimmer came out shooting this last game and I think that will go a long ways toward him taking on a combo guard role rather than trying to be a pure PG.
With young players we need to be patient, or so I hear, and given the need for role clarity I just don’t see that Jimmer has been able to play his best game yet. No wonder he hasn’t been comfortable.
Patience is hard, but worthwhile before consigning a top pick the end of the bench.
CowbellKings - January 12, 2012
I was completely against the Kings drafting Jimmer
But there’s some court vision and basketball I.Q. there. A starting point anyway.
blknblu - January 12, 2012
Everytime I hear 'Combo' or 'Stretch' it just reminds me that we don't have a player talented enought to fill the role
I do not want another Combo Guard. If we had to have one we should of kept Beno. We need a playmaker, and for now if that’s IT that’s fine. I don’t believe he’s ready based on one game but we can give it a try if Thornton’s out again.
Jimmer has no where near the True PG experience that Thomas has. They played totally different styles in college. But, that doesn’t mean that Jimmer won’t be a excellent starting PG some time in the future. I liken it to what Smart did for Curry. Curry was a better shooter out of college, but Jimmer is showing better defense and handles that are at least as good as Curry’s. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised is Smarts work with Curry wasn’t the reason that the Kings chose to bring Smart on board in the first place.
HighTops - January 12, 2012
You´re just crazy
If you inply that they actually thought ahead. Snap out of it.
rubenho - January 13, 2012
Site Suggestion: The Westphal Rotation Rosterbating Fanpost
It’s kind of like the Asinine Trade Thread, except for people to go on and on about all the rotation changes they want to make game in and game out and we can keep all of that stuff in one place. And we can name it in memory of the coach who loved to start the hot hand and make perplexing decisions.
wallywagon11 - January 12, 2012
I agree with you, but....
A new coach has just started, and he’s dealing with injuries. Westphal rotated line-up every five games for the hell of it.
Salmons has looked like crap consistently under two coaches. If everyone is healthy, based on what I’ve seen I would start..
IT, Thorton, Tyreke, Hayes, Cousins
Bench players getting the most minutes….JT, Jimmer, Hickson
While players are injured I like Hickson starting in place of Hayes and hopefully Thorton is back tonight.
nerdninja - January 12, 2012
Pretty cool with whatever Smart wants to do at this point
and have no interest in writing fanposts arguing otherwise yet given as you said a new coach has just started.
wallywagon11 - January 12, 2012
I don't think Thomas should start either
..he should be the first guard off the bench once the starters are sputtering, which would mean he comes in halfway through the 1st qtr. I also feel Thornton should be coming off the bench as well. He’s a gunner. He’s going to get his shots up regardless of whether he starts or not. Might as well get them with the 2nd unit where its not bad for him to shoot vs the 1st unit, who need the ball at 1st to get going usually. Problem is Jimmer isn’t the answer as a starter either
Anyone else feel Jimmer shrinking and almost sad on the bench as the Kings were doing well in the 4th yesterday?
Tom A~! - January 12, 2012
All about small sample size...
I’m not sure any changes to the rotation should take place, unless it’s for something as simple as injury or effort (see: Hayes, Chuck for the former and Salmons, John for the latter as references). Smart’s not had the time do anything but draw x’s and o’s on napkins on the team plane on the way to the next game, and that’s not going to be changing any time soon with this wicked roadtrip. The guys should just have the chance to get to know each other, make their mistakes and learn a little bit more each day. If you have to bench someone (*cough*salmons*cough*) do it for items within their control (like actually trying). There have been a zillion (give or take) different lineups from necessity, that should be enough without “westphauling” even more inconcsistency.
Ratatat - January 12, 2012
Passing Instincts
Small sample size be damned! Thomas had three passes in the 4th last night that were the three ‘best’ passes I’ve seen from any King this year. Tyreke kicking out to an open shooter is one kind of assist, but still dependant on the shooter (not a strength of our team.) A no-look bounce to a wide-open center under the basket is technically the same, but leads to a much higher percentage play, a happier center, and a better flow.
It’s not that I think Tyreke is incapable, but he doesn’t have the same instinct we saw in Thomas last night. They mentioned it on the broadcast… Coach Smart was running down the sideline with Tyreke telling him to keep his court vision. Tyreke has mentioned it himself… he is a scorer first and still trying to really get comfortable in a distributor role.
Hardly - January 12, 2012
Exactly. Somehow someway an NBA team needs a little acurate timely passing or they're not going to win much.
blknblu - January 12, 2012
Exactly This. I think the writing's on the wall.
sj60615 - January 12, 2012
Point Guards
First off thomas was great last night.Jimmer is awful but still learning so come march trades start happening we should go after (cavs) ramon sessions or (rockets) courtney lee
or andre miller.just my thoughts but great game last night.GO KINGS!!
cowboyron96@yahoo.com - January 12, 2012
Prophet
caseycheesecake - January 13, 2012
I don't think that comparing the assist/turnover numbers necessarily helps the argument.
Tyreke is in his third year in the league, Thomas is in his third week. As you pointed out, Thomas already has better assist numbers than Evans, although worse turnover figures. I would expect Thomas’ numbers to improve over the next 100 weeks, and probably at a rate commensurate with Evans’ own improvement over his first 2+ years.
Honestly? I would expect his numbers in this area to well outpace Tyreke’s. Isaiah is a point guard.
andy sims - January 12, 2012
Excellent points, Andy.
Slam_Dunk - January 12, 2012
You would?
Everyone’s the same…#60 picks and #4 picks? Who’s to say that once Isaiah is on opponent’s radars and they adjust to him, that he’s able to make the leap? Will he be able to play Toronto every game?
I like Thomas…very much so at this point. But it’s still very early to assume Isaiah will maintain his current numbers, much less improve on them.
otis29 - January 12, 2012
I think this says a lot right now.
Slam_Dunk - January 12, 2012
Really?
Per 36 Career: Reke- 4.9 ; Thomas-4.2
Assist Percentage Career: Reke-25.2%; Thomas-20.6%
wallywagon11 - January 12, 2012
The numbers I refer to are assists and turnovers, nothing more.
andy sims - January 12, 2012
And my question still stands
otis29 - January 12, 2012
If you really want to compare career number for a player 10 games into said career, I don't think we can have a real conversation about this.
I am suggesting that with starter’s minutes, whether or not he starts, Thomas will prove to be a better facilitator of the offense than anyone currently on the roster. His skills in this area are already in many ways better than Evans’. It’s apparent his court awareness is superior, and he very obviously is looking to get everyone involved before looking for his own shot.
That’s a point guard. Evans is very skilled, and has some traits of a point guard, but that isn’t his natural position. As I have to point out with the Fredette worshipers, this is not an attack, this is an assessment with the statistical and visual evidence we have this far, limited though it may be in Thomas’ case. Evans is a big boy, he doesn’t need to be constantly defended.
andy sims - January 12, 2012
Maybe I'm misunderstanding
But you’re stating facts based on what you’ve seen of this guy 10 games in his career (“Thomas will be a better facilitator, his skills are superior”), yet when I make the argument that 10 games gives us no certainty to his future or growth as a point guard in the NBA, suddenly we can’t have a real conversation?
So is Mr. Thomas, I’m assuming.
Sorry, you can’t just wave a magic wand and get everyone to agree with you Andy.
otis29 - January 12, 2012
I don't really care if I convince you or not. It's your absolute right to be incorrect in your snap judgments.
Since 10 games is no more a reasonable sample size to gauge a player’s career successful or unsuccessful, we’ll increase the sample size.
In three years at UW, playing in 35 games each season, Thomas’ assist to turnover ration went from 1:1 to 1.3:1 to better than 2:1. Whether anyone gives a damn or not, I can’t say. I would suggest that this constitutes evidence of an ability to learn and improve with experience.
Evans one season in college, Evans had a 1.08:1 assist to turnover ratio. In a very good rookie season, Evans’ ratio was a wonderful 1.9:1.
Last season Evans had a 1.75:1 figure, and this season, it’s 1.4:1. Thomas in the same current time frame as Evans is 1.5:1.
The evidence in play indicates that Thomas improved his proficiency over time against similar competition, whereas Evans has become less efficient over a similar period.
Now, understanding that college and the NBA are apples and oranges is paramount. My initial post was in response to Ziller’s assertion that
Based on his college numbers, Thomas is a point guard. His FGA per game remained remarkably consistent over three years, all the while doubling his efficiency in areas pertaining to the point guard position. Will it apply to the NBA? No one knows. Do I like his odds in regard to Evans of becoming a real facilitator of the team’s offense based on the skills he’s displayed here and at UW? Absolutely.
Evans is an amazing basketball player. He is best suited being a shooting guard who assists and rebounds at a better-than-average rate rather than running an offense. A lot of teams would relish him in that role, I wish I could understand why the organization and its most informed followers don’t.
andy sims - January 12, 2012
LOL
The length of your subsequent post would seem to indicate differently, but ok.
You do know that Isaiah Thomas was forced into the point guard role at UW after an injury right? He was the dreaded “combo guard” as well until his senior season. That could be why you see an improvement in his assist to turnover ratio, because he was forced to pass the ball. He appeared to take to it well, but UW is not the NBA.
Here’s the bottom line. You’re clearly reacting to one game’s worth of evidence against a crappy opponent and then spouting “small sample size” to anyone who looks at his current numbers as a “facilitator” versus Evans’ numbers. You are assuming that Thomas will continue to improve over time – I’m just trying to figure out how that’s assured.
You’re welcome to your opinion, of course. But it seems you’re wielding the small sample size stick in a hypocritical manner.
otis29 - January 13, 2012
I can see this is getting to be futile.
You want me to assure you? I’m not your mother. In my previous post, all I did was look at the information we have thus far, you know, evidence, and attempt to extrapolate a possible result. I didn’t promise or guarantee anything. The team plane might crash tomorrow, and then boy, would I look stupid.
“Haha, Isaiah Thomas isn’t ever going to be a great NBA point guard, or anything else for that matter! In your face, sims!”
I dig out 3-4 years worth of data in order to support my opinion (yep, opinion), and you still go to your “small sample size” crutch (or is it a stick?). I didn’t even mention the Toronto game in order to make the argument, but if you’re convinced that’s what has me all fired up about Thomas, and not my own assessment of his game in the time he’s been playing and practicing in Sacramento, then there’s not a whole lot else to add. Since I know you’re a bright guy, I’ll simply conclude that you’re just being contrary for the hell of it, which is certainly fun to do once in awhile.
andy sims - January 13, 2012
Okey dokey
otis29 - January 13, 2012
Pretty sure sims has talked about how Isaiah is the only point guard on this team well before the Toronto game.
wallywagon11 - January 13, 2012
That's not my problem with his opinion so much
As his assumption that Isaiah will only get better. Basically, he’s called it a stone-cold lock.
What happened to Tyreke can just as easily happen to the first pick in a draft as to the #60 pick in the draft. Isaiah’s had a nice start, but crowning him as the “point guard of the future” for this team is premature.
His implication in rebutting Ziller’s points about assist and turnover % is that the sample size is too small (“I would expect Thomas’ numbers to improve over the next 100 weeks, and probably at a rate commensurate with Evans’ own improvement over his first 2+ years.”). Yet, when I say that the sample size is too small to expect Isaiah to maintain his current numbers over time – well, I’m making “snap judgements”.
I have no beef with Isaiah’s play at this point – I think he’s been great. But there’s no reason for me to think that he’ll continue to play at this level over the long haul. Team’s aren’t exactly focusing on him, and when they do – well, we’ll see how he does.
otis29 - January 13, 2012
When you get a sec, please show me where I crowned Thomas as the "point guard of the future."
And please refrain from trying to put words or anything else into my mouth.
andy sims - January 13, 2012
I just realized what's going on here.
You keep writing that I’ve said things which I haven’t, or even implied in most cases.
The reality is that you’re having a debate with someone who is trying to make a case based on information at hand, some of it large sample size, some small, and a great deal of personal observation.
You seem to think you’re arguing with someone who has made all sorts of statements which I wouldn’t have said, didn’t say, and in many cases wouldn’t agree with.
If you want to argue with that fictional person, I’m fine with it, but you keep replying to what I’ve typed, and I wish you’d leave me out of whatever inner conflict or internet-based hallucinations that you’re wrestling with.
See? Now that’s the sort of remark that you can quote back to me with righteous offense!
andy sims - January 13, 2012
although I question whether Isaiah is a point guard or not
well stated
wallywagon11 - January 13, 2012
I'm with you on this one
But the point of TZ’s piece kind of moved to the back of my mind when I read this
Tyreke had one of his best games playing SG with a true PG. That alone would seem to indicate that we play the best PG in the starting rotation.
But, and there is always a but, we played an excellent game against Orlando and only lost by 7 points. We shot 52% and had 16 assists. Against Toronto we won by 7 pts but to a far inferior team. We shot 37% and only had 13 assists. In the game without Thornton or Thomas we got blown out and Thomas got most of his minutes with Tyreke on the bench.
Basically we really don’t know anything for sure based on such a little sample size. Except that Tyreke can be just as effective at the 2, and we need more than a PG to get this team’s assists up into the 20’s.
HighTops - January 12, 2012
My only thought with that block quote
was;
What exactly has Tyreke improved at in the past 2+ years!?
Dirkula - January 12, 2012
Tyreke has improved what he already good at...
He just hasn’t added any new skills that will help sustain his great play. For example: driving left, left hand finishes at the rim, using screens efficiently, mid-ranged jump shots, and a post-up game.
Wonderchild - January 12, 2012
IT *is* a true PG, and a great one at that...
It’s ridiculous to look at the asst/to stats of a rookie coming off the bench who is unsure of his position and who is feeling his way around the league. He was not sure of how his teammates played and they were unsure of him.
Furthermore, it’s moronic to draw such a huge and overriding conclusion from a small set of early stats that a person looks like a PG, but isn’t.
If we want to look at stats, start from last night when IT and the team finally got comfortable with each other. The Kings finally look like a team with IT leading them. Their only chance of winning and doing something significant this season is to give the keys to IT and let him drive.
If IT plays 20 mins/g, the Kings will be a .500 team. If he plays 30 mins/g, they will be at least a .600 team. If he gets minimal minutes, the Kings will be a disorganized bunch of losers.
We need IT to run this team!
.
bobk3333 - January 12, 2012
Hmmm
otis29 - January 12, 2012
lol
wallywagon11 - January 12, 2012
"it’s moronic to draw such a huge and overriding conclusion from a small set of early stats "
How moronic is it to determine a definitive conclusion based on one game against a team that is tied with us for the 11th worst record in the league.
Does Thomas have more experience at playing the PG than any other player on the team, Yes. But, in spite of his capabilities we had one of the lowest assist games of the season. Can he perform just as well against Houston and Dallas as he did against Toronto, maybe. I kind of hope that Thornton doesn’t come back right away or at least returns slowly off the bench.
Either way, until Thomas gets more burn at starting against good teams, we need to hold our enthusiasm in check.
HighTops - January 12, 2012
.600 if IT plays 30+ minutes?
Yes, very moronic.
caseycheesecake - January 13, 2012
I'm getting a sense of deja vu
with the Evans/Thornton backcourt. It’s looking really similar to the Evans/Martin backcourt. With the Evans/Martin starting backcourt we would have the same scoring problems to begin games we’re having now. We would regularly find ourselves with double digit deficits early only to get back into games once Beno was subbed for Martin. This happened numerous times before trading Martin.
The problem we had then is the same one we are having now: we are starting two scoring guards. Yes Tyreke gets assists but they are usually the byproduct of him trying to score (I call these Allen Iverson assists) and not because of a set play or in the flow of the offense.
I would love to see Geoff go out and get a traditional PG. Remove the pressure to run the team off of Tyreke and let him focus on attacking and scoring.
StevenG - January 12, 2012
Evans/Martin
Just a reminder that Martin broke his hand a few games into ’Reke’s rookie season, and was put on the shelf five games into the season. After missing 32 games, Martin returned during a stretch where the Kings played 13 of their next 17 on the road, leaving virtually no time for practice. All told, Evans and Martin played 21 games together: 5 at the beginning of the season and 16 after Martin returned from injury.
That deja vu that you are sensing may be that there are those that are jumping to a conclusion that Evans and Thornton won’t work together without giving these two guys a real chance to play together before coming to that conclusion.
section214 - January 12, 2012
Yep, and the worst part about it
Our GM, who has very rarely made kneejerk decisions, did so in the Martin/Evans case. And we’re still trying to chase down equal value at this point.
otis29 - January 12, 2012
Probably true, but at least for this season Thornton's numbers are better than Martin's
HighTops - January 12, 2012
I think StevenG is referring to the type of players they are as opposed to the chemistry between them
Evans, Thornton and Martin are all scoring guards. When one guard has the uncanny ability to score, the other guard’s job is to get him to do so more easily. Martin really didn’t help others around him score, his job was to do it. Thornton is same type of player. It would be nice, however, if Thornton had the ability to get to the line like Martin. That is their glaring difference.
adamsite - January 12, 2012
We also have to remind ourselves who IT had his breakout game against.
He put up very impressive numbers against arguably the worst defensive PG in the league in Calderon. I am as excited as the rest of you on IT’s game and PG potential, but we are days into a new system. That being said, I prefer him being partnered on the court with Evans as opposed to Thornton. as SteveG just said, Thornton/Evans backcourt does remind some of Evans/Martin. This is not necessarily bad, but not ideal. I for one would have liked to see more of the Evans/Martin backcourt, but it is pointless to talk about. Overall, I’d like Thornton to be our punch off the bench in a 6th man role, much like Bobby Jackson, Jason Terry, and Jamal Crawford.
We also need to remember that IT is a scoring first PG. In many ways he is just a shorter version of Thronton, although with better handles and speed. IT’s most precious attribute is his drive and kick ability. Interestingly enough, I see it as very similar to Evans’ ability. When Evans drives to the lane, he looks to score because he can crash with bigger bodies and therefore does not kick it out as often as some of us would like. IT does not have this ability with his size, so his passes seem all the more impressive and productive. It also helps when your teammates make their open shots. Evans would have a much better assist rate if this were the case, and we would not be having this discussion of who our starting PG should be.
adamsite - January 12, 2012
I don't think we need a "true" PG
I think we need a fast PG type that pushes the pace up & down the floor. Tyreke doesn’t do that, neither does Jimmer. They both seem to walk the ball up(correct me if I’m wrong I’ve only watched like 4 games this year, no cable)
At the same time I don’t like the idea of IT/Jimmer, MT23, & Tyreke all starting. I just don’t get why everyone feels MT23 needs to start. Manu Ginobli hasn’t started most of his career. James Harden is another example even though they are starter quality. Start IT & Reke, bring MT23 & Jimmer off the bench to rain 3’s on the other teams back-ups. MT23 should still play starters minutes off the bench.
Allbenji - January 12, 2012 via mobile
Walking the ball up isn't a bad thing in it's self, I don't think Nash is all that quick
there is no reason for the other players not to start the play prior to the ball getting to the arc. The player with the ball is usually under no duress and has full vision of the court in the event that someone is getting open. But, if we’re just going to stand around waiting for the ball to arrive, then yes move it up quicker.
I do like getting the ball up the court quickly if your going into the post to play an inside out game. And, Tyreke can certainly get up the court quickly enough on the fast break, so maybe he needs the extra couple of seconds to get a feel for the court and the defense.
I’ve said all along that there weren’t enough basketballs to go around for Tyreke, Thornton and Salmons to start together. And, while we may not ‘need a true PG’, I think that Tyreke might actually be more effective along with one. Either way, I believe that the reason that Coach Smart was brought on board was to help us improve at that position, just like he did for Curry at GS.
And, I have the feeling that the target for his attention is still Jimmer. So, while he brings him along I have no problem with either a Tyreke/Thornton or Thomas/Tyreke starting backcourt.
HighTops - January 12, 2012
Not that it matters, but how is Isaiah not a traditional or "pure" PG?
The TOs from Isaiah have been when he tries to split double teams when there has not been enough space, and few ill-advised passes he could have made in college, not in pros. These are plays he can learn from and are not indication he lacks “pure” PG ability.
Those dimes to Cousins looked like “pure” PG plays to me. A PG who can turn the corner get into the lane and create passing angles is what I want from a PG, and thats what Isaiah did v. TOR.
The two attributes that Isaiah has that a PG, “pure” or not, possesses is speed and toughness, physical and mental. He drew a foul against Big Baby Davis in the post and does a good job sliding feet and holding ground. I am impressed with his defensive ability as much as quickness and three point shooting.
Before the season began, my impression of him from pick-up games was a player who plays like he belongs. And that has carried over so far. He’s not fazed by bigger players (in other words, everyone else lol), the stage, the pressure or physicality of NBA level competition.
Last thought on “pure” PG: Ricky Rubio has reputation of “pure” PG going to MIN, and he has been that so far, better than expected, and yet the broadcasters talk about his next stage of development as player is to become more of scoring threat.
When teams get “pure” PG they want more. Teams without “pure” PG wish they had one. Ultimately, I think its about the primary ball handler ensuring offense runs smoothly and efficiently, with easy shots created consistently, for self or others. Isaiah was +10 differential and created half our total assists. Our offense went from plodding to up tempo and mostly cohesive with Isaiah on the floor.
“Pure” PG? Traditional PG? Eh, doesn’t matter, Isaiah was purely fantastic last game.
bench_blob - January 12, 2012
Yep, balls of steel. His faith is strong, especially when he stands his ground and take those charges
His 3pt shooting is also a surprise. I’m not going to get too excited over one game against the Raptors. I’m just really happy to see Tyreke’s play at the 2.
HighTops - January 12, 2012
Unfortunately the Backcourt is Already Set
Acquiring a traditional point guard would mean removing someone from the back-court rotation. Petrie has essentially put all of his back-court eggs into one basket. Tyreke Evans is one of the two (if not the main) building blocks to rebuilding this franchise. Marcus Thorton just signed a multiyear deal to remain in Sacramento and continues to display the scoring barrage that earned him that very contract. Jimmer is a PR dream for this small market and, despite his low performance in the early stages of this season, is still considered (and primed) to become a player in this league.
This team NEEDS a true point guard. Unfortunately the back court, by all standards, seems to be already set. Their are a handful of under-performing players currently on this team but the back-court (along with Cousins) remains practically untouchable. Trade scenarios to allow a pass first point guard would only be obtainable if one of the three key rotational back-court players were dealt. I don’t see that happening this season. Not with a new coach, a superstar in training, a leading scorer, and a Jimmer.
Isaiah Thomas has been a pleasant surprise this season. However, his value can be attributed more-so to the gaping hole of this shoot first team than his talent alone. He’s a fine player and might prove to be the best 60th pick in the draft of all time. But his success, like that of any backcourt player the Kings pick up, is predicated on the departure of either Evans, Thorton, or Jimmer. His playing time only presented itself because of a Marcus Thorton injury. Go ahead, insert the perfect point guard you’d like to see fill that hole for the Kings: Steve Nash, CP3, Deron Williams, or even Isaiah Thomas. They do not work unless you take one of the three out of the rotation. So pick your poison. Do you Petrie and continue to roll the dice on a rotation of impure guards OR do you roll the dice and trade away for the potential missing piece? The really bad news… you can’t do both.
CrownedPotential - January 12, 2012
...unless you make a serious attempt at 'Reke as your starting SF.
I think it’s kind of hard to imagine Tyreke succeeding in that role because he doesn’t really fit what I would guess is the common perception of what a SF is or should be, an athletic shooter who can also slash and finish at the rim. But lemme throw a name out there: Andre Iguodala. I can see ’Reke developing into a similar player: flawed but extremely valuable on both ends of the floor.
AnotherStupidSN - January 12, 2012
Like the nickname "Cold Blooded" for Isaiah
We all know about “Isaiah the Prophet”
Last night Isaiah was “The Profit”
kurtis22 - January 12, 2012
Some point during the season, I would love to see the line up of
PG – IT
SG – Evans
SF – Donte
PF – Chuck
C – Cousins
Marcus gets the most minutes of the bench. He comes in and chucks like Jamal Crawford. When he comes in, Tyreke moves to the PG spot. JT gets the most frontline minutes. JJ comes in to provide the athletic spark. Salmons comes off the bench to back up Donte.
khoganso - January 12, 2012
Respectfully khoganso, I don't think Donte has done much to warrant starting him.
Salmons at least as been productive in the past, Donte hasn’t. Just my two cents. I could get behind starting IT though.
ThankgodwehaveWhiteside! - January 12, 2012
I agree with you
Thats why I put at some point during the season. Personally, I think that Donte has so much upside, I guess I am hoping that with a new coach he will reach his potential some time during this season. Since Smart has taken over Donte has been getting more run and with his ability to defend and his length I am just hoping for a breakthrough. Just wishful thinking.
khoganso - January 12, 2012
I missed the "some point during the season"
I used to picture a playoff run with Donte, JT, and Tyreke as starters. It seems more faint now, but Donte is a decent guy, I just wish he would hit his 3 more consistantly. And just because I havn’t said it in a few posts………… we need Burkle.
ThankgodwehaveWhiteside! - January 12, 2012
Props to TZ for remembering to give some love to McCant's, McTenacity was not bad on his short stay here
Please just say no to Donté starting, he has barely proved he deserves to come off the bench let alone start.
I know I’m going to get slammed for this but I think some time up in Reno with the Big Horns would be perfect for Jimmer right now. It would give him a chance to play big minutes and get his confidence up while working on his game out of the spot light.
Bluejohn - January 12, 2012
I liked McCant's effort.
But those were some line drive darts he would launch at the rim.
blknblu - January 12, 2012
That would reduce ticket sales, so not gonna happen.
Shizzo - January 12, 2012
Do it while the team is on a long road trip, bring him back to the big team when they get home to sell some tickets.
AnotherStupidSN - January 12, 2012
Damn the torpedoes...start Isaiah
Tiz more important to win games then wait for some chemistry to develop that isn’t here now.
We need to roll the dice…fore we crap out.
convoy - January 12, 2012
I'm not arguing this point because I think it's too early
But I also think Jimmer will put things together fairly soon.
lietothegirls - January 12, 2012
Isn't that why we brought in the coach that turned Curry into a PG.
HighTops - January 12, 2012
it's fun to dream
Jimmer is Curry on the stroke (but with more range) but Steph Curry is as pure a passer, from the start, as has been in the NBA for the past 3 seasons. Jimmer has other gifts, but that passing gene isn’t there to Curry’s extent. It will get better, much better, but not Curry spicy.
And 1: Curry is turning into a PG version of Kevin Martin – just a slightly built guy who gets injured easily and often.
betweentheeyes - January 12, 2012
Curry was thrown into the deep end just like Tyreke
Jimmer has been brought along a little slower. While Curry may have had slightly better court experience, Jimmer is definitely a better defender.
Because it’s so early in the season, to compare rookie stats I’m only stating this as a point of reference and not a statement of fact.
Based on Hoopdata adjusted for 40 mpg:
Curry’s average is 19 pts, 6.5 assists and 3.4 turnovers for his rookie season
Jimmer averages 14 pts, 3.8 assists and 3.0 turnovers after 11 games
I’ll make it a mental note to bring up the seasons stats in April, but until then I’ll take your advice and keep dreaming.
HighTops - January 13, 2012
So much of what is going wrong with Jimmer
seems to be about confidence, which surprises me.
lietothegirls - January 13, 2012
Me too
I thought that would be the least of his problems.
otis29 - January 13, 2012
Both Thomas and Jimmer are going to play a lot of minutes
with Thornton out.
Who starts, quite frankly, isn’t as important as who finishes.
Also, the Kings and Thomas were lucky to feast on point guards who don’t score when playing the Raptors, so there’s no real threat to defend. That’s not going to be the case in many games. The Raptor point guards are also also soft on defense.
That said, Thomas played a terrific game and I look forward to seeing him and Cousins to do a lot more pick-and-rolling. They seemed to have some great chemistry together.
NewEraKings - January 12, 2012
Yeah Thomas had a few nice pick and roll plays
mostly with Cousins but there was one nice one involving Hickson as well (who is at his best as a roll guy on the Pick and Roll)
Aykis16 - January 12, 2012
I think IT is a left-handed version of Ty Lawson
Jimmered. - January 12, 2012
Isiah Thomas is a black Sergio Rodriguez.
ThankgodwehaveWhiteside! - January 12, 2012
I don't think so
Isaiah is shorter, quicker, more of a scorer, better shooter, and doesn’t try to be as flashy as Sergio. And he’s also a better defender, though that’s not saying much.
raiderking21 - January 12, 2012
I think they are both equally fun to watch.
And you’re right, Isiah will probably end up putting in more of a full stat sheet than Serg.
ThankgodwehaveWhiteside! - January 13, 2012
All this from one game against one of the worst teams in the league.....
I think IT and JF can both be point guards and have shown different strengths and weaknesses at the position. I know both were actually pretty good distributors in college, though one was the highest scorer in the nation and thus wasn’t asked to pass as much since he was the best option on the team to score almost every time. Tell Jimmer to look for his shot when there’s nobody in a good position to score and things will go better. One big difference between his game right now and a successful point guard’s is that he seems to be looking not to shoot and only to look for other people’s shots. A good point looks for the best option to score and, if that option is himself, he will shoot.
Mr. Rockie - January 13, 2012
So...Fredette is a guard who should look for his shot. A guard who shoots first.
Or, according to many here, A POINT GUARD.
andy sims - January 13, 2012
I don't think you got my point
I said Jimmer should look for his shot when other people don’t have a good one, which he doesn’t seem to be doing, instead of passing the ball anyway simply because he doesn’t want to seem selfish. Plenty of people are taking shots on the team. Nobody’s gonna criticize if you take the good shots instead of passing them up.
Mr. Rockie - January 13, 2012
Ugh
That gave me chills.
rubenho - January 13, 2012
You guys
should just bring Adelman back. He could do wonders with a Fredette/Evans back court and MT would be deadly off the bench.
RedHopeful - January 13, 2012
Adelman wouldn't come back if we begged him.
ThankgodwehaveWhiteside! - January 13, 2012
He would if it weren’t for the Maloofs still owning this team
Widowwolf - January 13, 2012
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