Sactown Royalty

Which games hasn't it?

Obviously getting blown out on almost a nightly basis isn’t going to make anyone happy. But I can’t recall DMC showing any outward behavior to sitting on the bench or the team getting killed, other than, of course, the natural competitive frustration that comes with losing.

diehardkingsfan5 - January 18, 2012 via mobile reply

Well remember he has also been sick this roadtrip, so any signs of non-content could be that too

Widowwolf - January 18, 2012 reply

Fair point

I’ve seen the scowling negativity on the bench, and there was the incident with the cameraman in Dallas as well. But he’s allegedly been under the weather.

Incident or non-incident?

bench_blob - January 18, 2012 reply

Incident

Confirmed: Isaiah Thomas had to restrain Cousins and there was some profanity involved.

I’m not taking the cameraman’s side here. If the rumors of what happened are true, he should be fired. Just sayin’ that DeMarcus is still the same DeMarcus (IMO) until proven otherwise.

Sort of reminded me of this story but in a time and place where there was no twitter around to catch the press reaction of “This guy is a dick.”

How do you prove it otherwise, to your satisfaction, Otis?

Serious question.

He stays out of trouble for an extended period of time?

I'm also curious how anyone can assume he's "turned the corner"?

Okay.

Define: What do you define as trouble
Define: What is an extended period of time. Are we talking months or years?

Sorry, not interested in getting into minutea

I’ll just say “longer than he has at any point in his career so far”.

I wasn't looking for minutea...

I was asking for specifics. Staying out of trouble for an extended period of time is rather broad. Do you define his career as one season or are you going back further?

I don't think we need to go back further

Otis only counts 456.2 days back not including weekends or federal holidays.

going down a useless road here

I'll quit there.

Otis and I might have a bit of a difference as to what constitutes “trouble.”

I didn’t have a problem with a recent technical Cousins got for “starring down” an opponent. (I thought that was funny.) Nor did I have a problem with this “choke hold” gesture, last season, except for the fact it was a distraction and the Warriors ended up winning the game. Westphal made way too much ado about that one, imo. A simple one-on-one talk about professionalism was all that was really needed.

Cousins doesn’t complain to refs anymore and consistently walks away from opponents who are trying to provoke, irritate or otherwise rile him, which is virtually every game. Cousins puts in the effort, even when the team is struggling. He wasn’t feeling well one night and I will give him a pass.

I don’t put much stock in second-hand information, nor in stories blown all out of proportion by so-called journalists looking to capitalize on the attention it brings them. But, that is just me.

I think Cousins is a very talented player, a bright young man, with a crazy wacky sense of humor. I think he is a great addition to our team and I look forward to the day when he makes the All-Star team.

We'll ignore trade requests and assaults on teammates I suppose?

The second-hand information of the need to throw Cousins out of practice repeatedly and the need to actually suspend him for this last season have not been refuted from what I understand.

And he’s far from put in the effort consistently this season. There were a few games he played balls out, but that hasn’t been the rule.

I think Cousins is a very talented player, but not a very bright young man, with a penchant for pissing everyone off around him. But I agree that I look forward to the day when he makes the All-Star team…I’m just not holding my breath while I wait.

I'm not ignoring the assault on a teammate.

I mentioned previously, in another thread, that he stepped over the line when he assaulted Donte.

As for the trade requests, Cousins denies he made any. Any information otherwise is second-hand, without context, or comes from Westphal who issued his press release, with his own agenda.

I think Cousins’ effort has been good this season, perhaps not “balls out” as you describe, but his stats speak for themselves.

We may differ as to semantics as to our assessment as to “bright.” I use the term to mean that I think he is intelligent and a quick learner. He may not always use good judgment, especially when he loses his cool. Not very many of us do. That is not his strong suit, but in all fairness to him, I believe he as been working to improve that area of himself.

I am sure you have no doubt heard of the self-fulfilling prophesy. It is a prediction that directly or indirectly causes itself to become true, by the very terms of the prophecy itself, due to feedback. The same works when other people give feedback to someone. For example, if everyone says John is a no-good jerk, that is what John constantly hears about himself and comes to believe and act in ways consistent with the prophesy. But, if everyone says that John is a really talented guy who is going someplace, John hears that and begins to believe it and act in accordance with the prophecy.

I think Cousins is basically a good person, and I want to see him succeed. I would hope that people surround him with positive feedback for him to grow, mature, and make better decisions. I suspect you feel likewise.

There doesn't seem to be much dispute

That, at the very least, DeMarcus said “If you don’t like the way I play, then trade me”. Whether you consider that a trade request or not, it’s very clearly drawing a line in the sand with your coach that you are unwilling to get on the same page.

I’m curious why you think “Cousins is basically a good person”? Is it that you want to think the best of him, or is it something tangible? Because, quite honestly, I haven’t seen much to give me that impression.

And why do you think he’s “working to improve himself”? These events with Westphal transpired before the season even started (both Hayes and Evans were somewhat critical of DeMarcus in the media) – and it’s not like this stuff happened that long ago.

No doubt, DeMarcus is an extremely talented basketball player. I suspect that’s about the extent of our agreement on him.

It is as though you and I view Cousins through a different pair of lenses.

I don’t know whether we have a different perception of him because of our own background and experiences or what.

There is dispute as to DeMarcus’ alleged statement of his wanting a trade. He denies it first off. Second, we don’t know the context other than there was an exchange between the two of them.

If someone criticizes someone, the other person could become defensive and say something like, “If you feel that way, then just trade me.” The statement might come from a position of feeling hurt. It sounds a lot like something a kid might say to a parent. He doesn’t really mean it. It is just a test to see if his parent really loves him.

A coach needs to realize that sometimes his player might respond to him much in the way that a son could respond to a parent. Coaching 101. When this happens, the coach needs to take the high ground and say, “No Demarcus, we are not going to trade you.”

I don’t know whether this is what happened, but I can see that as a possibility. In this case, I could see where DeMarcus would not see this as demanding a trade, because it wasn’t.

I haven’t observed anything about DMC, which makes me think he is a bad person. His teammates have reported what a good teammate he is and that he is fun to be around. He has a great sense of humor, which you rarely see in someone who is not a good person at heart. I chose to view him as a good person, unless proven otherwise.

Skeptic con Urquell - January 18, 2012 reply

That, at the very least, DeMarcus said "If you don’t like the way I play, then trade me".

which seems like a pretty intelligent solution to westphal’s problem?
Bottom line is do you care how he acts if he wins? Artest was the best defender in the league for years so you wouldn’t have wanted him? Sheed draws more technicals than anyone so he’d be out? rodman wore dresses??

If "he" wins?

You mean if “the team” wins, right?

I’m glad we have DeMarcus Cousins – the talent – on our basketball team. My questions are with his personality and work ethic and how those are going to manifest themselves in his on-court performance.

It’s always going to come down to whether the talent of the player is worth the nonsense he puts you through. In no way do I believe the team should be actively looking to trade DeMarcus, and if it came down to either him or Westphal, I’m glad Westphal is gone. DeMarcus is a talented kid, and could be a very good NBA player someday.

But I don’t have to like the guy, or pretend he’s a swell human being simply because he plays for my team.

I agree with Otis

DeMarcus has a long way to go before he’s proven that he’s a grown-up. He’s had short periods before when there were no apparent problems. And for some time he’ll still be in the honeymoon period with his new coach. I’d like to believe in DMC as a person, a good teammate, and a positive influence on the team in ways that don’t show up in a box score. He needs to show it over the course of the next few months before I’m convinced.

kinglet - January 18, 2012 reply

I am with you on this one Otis

And I think you have stated it clearly and well. I have high hopes for DMC, and would love him to be a 16-10 man with good defense and efficient shooting, but I don’t have to pretend that he has shown himself to be a likable person and teammate just to be able to root for him as a player.

MichaelMack - January 18, 2012 reply

Right

If the problem is DMC’s happiness, then problem solved.

If the problem you are concerned about is not playing good basketball, there is a long way to go. I like everything I have heard from Smart and the players since the coaching change.

I would love to see the pace increase more. It would be nice to initiate the offense earlier, so that when the defense takes away option 1, there is still time on the clock. And I would like to see some off the ball movement. That’s all I ask for.

markdog333 - January 18, 2012 reply

I would hope that as soon as Smart said, "You messed up," he would then tell them how to do it right, demand they do it right, and hold the players accountable.

adamsite - January 18, 2012 reply

That's a couple more

than when PW was at the helm.

Rickyflip - January 18, 2012 reply

Reply Fail

This should be replying to Otis.

Rickyflip - January 18, 2012 reply

Uh huh

I’d buy this more if his own teammates didn’t imply that DMC was a rather large part of the problem with Westphal.

Let’s just file this little tidbit in our memories until the day comes when DeMarcus has his issues with Coach Smart, shall we?

Fair, if cynical.

Tom Ziller - January 18, 2012 reply

I gotta be me, Tom!

If he's wrong, you can always say you told him so.

Problem: He’s right.

Carl - January 18, 2012 reply

I don't know if it is very cynical Tom

I think players who have major problems with Coaches tend to have it with more than one Coach.

And I say that as someone that loathes the way PW treated this team.

MichaelMack - January 18, 2012 reply

What holds more weight to you?

Multiple players complaining about PW for years on their own, or a few players saying DMC needs to mature (which personally I don’t equate to him being the problem with Westphal) when they are pressed for it?

I just don't subscribe to the "one or the other" scenario

DMC’s shown over time that he’s a pain in the ass. Westphal screwed up royally with his press release this season (and obviously with some other players previously) and Petrie Soprano’d him over it.

I’m just not buying that everything is cupcakes and unicorns with Mr. Cousins quite yet. He’s only a few weeks removed from driving most of the team and it’s staff up the wall.

It worries me as well

What my hope relies on is that Smart holds everyone equally accountable, something that PW did not do, and seemed to be the foundation of all of the fights between him and Cousins. Here’s hopin’

Assumption?

He’s only a few weeks removed from driving most of the team and it’s staff up the wall.

Your interpretation of it, admittedly cynical, seems to be that Cousins drove his team “up the wall.” However, I don’t know of any team mates who actually said that nor did I hear anything that implied it. Is there something I missed here?

While I think it fair to take a wait and see approach… I don’t know that it is fair to put your forward as a fact unless some of players actually said anything like that. Did they? I mean you could be on point here and I just missed it.

He had an out with the coach and from all that I have heard that seems to be all we know for sure.

CowbellKings - January 18, 2012 reply

I'm inferring some of this

Based on the statements of teammates who indicated he’d been a bit of a problem child. Normally, you don’t hear players say anything negative about other players. But that’s not the case here.

So yes, I’m making assumptions. And I feel comfortable with those assumptions.

HOW DARE YOU!

...

Photobucket

"She's got a GREAT ASS!!!

…And you got your head all the way up it!"

One of his best scenes ever.

PhutureKings - January 18, 2012 reply

Let’s just file this little tidbit in our memories until the day comes when DeMarcus has his issues with Coach Smart, shall we?

Will this be an, “I told you so,” opportunity?

I hope you are also giving Cousins credit for the positive strides he has been making.

I just haven't seen much of what everyone else is seeing

Or let me rephrase – he’s had stretches of good behavior and good play before. I’m supposed to get excited because all he’s done this year is piss off some of his teammates and get his coach fired? This is improved behavior?

Saying that Cousins is the reason PW got fired

is being just as short-sided as saying that he is already matured under Smart’s coaching

I don't really see how

ummm probably because that ignores EVERYTHING else wrong with PW

I've ignored nothing about PW as a coach

I thought they should have fired him earlier, to be honest. But you’re being willfully ignorant if you don’t think the whole Westphal-Cousins issue got the team’s head coach fired seven games into a new season.

I agree with you about the Cousins/Smart situation

Disagree about Cousins being the sole reason (or large reason) PW was fired

Sorry if it seems I have it out for you today

I actually agree with your overall opinions, I just disagree with your arguments to justify them

/bro hug

No worries prowse. I’m enjoying the debate, actually.

But this was an ongoing problem with PW

We can’t just ignore his problems with Spencer Hawes and other players.

the whole Westphal-Cousins issue got the team’s head coach fired seven games into a new season

The above seems to ignore the fact that PW had ongoing problems with other players. Not to mention that the team was playing so bad.

An issue contributing, sure, but far from the whole bag of dirt that got him fired.

CowbellKings - January 18, 2012 reply

So if the whole "trade me if you don't like the way I play" thing and the Westphal statement to the media regarding Cousins hadn't occurred

You think Westphal would have been fired anyways? 7 games in?

If so, I’ll just agree to disagree.

Maybe not 7, but with the way the team was playing no more than 11

I agree the Cousins indecent probably exacerbated the situation. But Cousins did not get PW fired. The results on the court were horrific. The offense was extremely simplistic. The team wasn’t even playing basic fundamental D. And our young players were not developing.

PW was gone and sooner rather than later. Team had quit on him.

Yep. This pretty much nails it.

CowbellKings - January 18, 2012 reply

He has made positive strides for two weeks. Perfectly fair to wonder if he can keep it up.

I do like the different approach Smart is bringing so far.

And it seems Tyreke and DeMarcus are buying in. Can it stay this way if wins do not happen soon? That will be the lasting question.

Wonderchild - January 18, 2012 reply

Agree

Accountability eh?

Why not just have some humility? I think that would go a lot further for this team than accountability, although both would be great…

herehere - January 18, 2012 reply

Without pulling Smart's last presser out of my hat

Smart did not sound like a coach whose players were embracing accountability in the least.

He seemed amazed by the teams lack of ability to master the simplistic offensive he has given them.

Accountability sounds good in theory but in practice will be one of the most difficult lessons Smart will ever try to teach spoiled bunch.

Bluejohn - January 18, 2012 via mobile reply

If telling "the truth" means having Salmons play more minutes than anyone, and continue shooting at will, then I can't handle the truth

(insert Nicholson picture from A Few Good Men here)

gregory l - January 18, 2012 reply

Thornton seemed unhappy last game.

Maybe he prefers being lied to, too.

elfboy_ - January 18, 2012 reply

He's been unhappy in several games

During one time out a few games ago, the camera showed Smart saying something to him and he walk out onto the court away from the huddle with a scowl on his face. After the time out, Jimmer entered in his place.

he's come off really pouty lately

Ill give him the benefit of the doubt and say it has to do with the fact he knows he can do better

He seems to be the kind of person that gets really hard on himself

Wonderchild - January 18, 2012 reply

But if he we're younger and 6-11, everyone would be waving red flags

Perceptions aren't alway correct

Salmons is 4th on the team in total FGA’s behind Tyreke, Thornton and Cousins. But if you look at how many shots he takes per minute of playing time, he actually takes fewer shots per minute than Tyreke, Thornton, Cousins, Thomas, Jimmer, Greene and Outlaw. And, he take almost the same amount of shots as JT, one every 3.3min. vs 3.4 minutes for JT.

So, I think your way off base with the ‘continue shooting at will’ unless your applying it to the entire team.

Get off the board, John Salmons!

He has a lower FG% than Tyreke, Thornton, JT and Cousins, so I am OK with all those guys shooting more than him.
Outlaw is awful
Yes, the team is shooting bad right now. But, If given an open shot, I think we would all prefer Isaiah or Jimmer take that shot, than Salmons.

gregory l - January 18, 2012 reply

To be fair

I think your way off base with the ‘continue shooting at will’ unless your applying it to the entire team

Salmons is also averaging the fewest PPP of the three. So he may not be the only one shooting at will, but he makes fans cringe the most out of the one who are shooting. So I think he’s ok in his desire to see Salmons cease firing at will. I didn’t see anything in his post suggesting Salmons was shooting the most.

Yep

His TS% is 12th on the team and his eFG% is 10th. He should be shooting less than anyone else (if at all).

Agreed. He should try passing more until his stroke comes back.

Well, I guess shooting at will holds a different meaning to me

In the context of a battle it means shot as many as you can. I’m simply pointing out that he isn’t the highest volume shooter. He’s 2nd in total minutes and 4th in FGA’s, but there are 7 plays that put up shots at a higher rate per minute played.

I’m not defending his results. I’m simply pointing out that it could be worse, he could be putting up shots as frequently as Thornton.