Isaiah Thomas started in place of John Salmons on Friday as the Kings lost to the Pistons. That means that Tyreke Evans was essentially the small forward, if not the co-point guard. (Point forward? I don't know.) Two things that Keith Smart had been consistent about all season were that Tyreke Evans is a point guard and that Jimmer Fredette is a point guard. Jimmer started with Tyreke when Marcus Thornton was out, most likely because there were few other options outside of moving down Salmons to two-guard and bringing in Donte Greene at small forward. If Francisco Garcia isn't going to get a look, and you're not shifting Salmons to two-guard, it was going to be Jimmer or Isaiah replacing Thornton. As they are similar, it didn't say a whole lot about Tyreke.
This one seems to say a lot more.
Here's Keith Smart in the post-game:
On starting Isaiah:
"I just felt they need more direction with another ball-handler, with a decision-maker that can also get us up the court pretty quickly."
Smart isn't saying that the team needed a point guard or even that the team needed a new point guard. He's sticking with the need for an additional ball-handler.
Isaiah played 22 of 24 minutes in the first and third quarters and about one minute in the second and fourth combined. In the first and third quarters, the Kings had an effective field goal percentage of 57 percent. In the second and fourth: 47 percent. Sixteen assists on 23 made baskets in first and third; nine assists on 20 baskets in the second and fourth.
The Pistons didn't have a great offensive fourth quarter -- it was on par with the first three quarters. The Kings lost because their offense fell apart. That in itself is a pretty ringing endorsement for Smart's Isaiah option. The most interesting part of the whole thing is that it was Tyreke -- not Isaiah -- who ended up with the bulk of the assists (nine, to I.T.'s four). And when did Tyreke get all of those? He had eight combined in the first and third quarters -- when Isaiah was on the floor -- and just one in the 17 minutes he played in the second and fourth quarters without Isaiah.
Thomas didn't end up becoming the primary point guard in place of Tyreke by starting with him. He fueled Tyreke's point guard fire.
It's a real interesting set-up. Look forward to seeing it again, and also seeing if Smart makes the same fourth quarter judgment call next time.
***
Requisite: free Donte.
4 recs | 63 comments
Is it possible
When IT brings the ball up the court it probably gets passed to Reke, then passed again for the score. Creating at least 2 passes which usually gets a better look.
If it’s Tyreke bringing the ball up it’s at a slower pace. Giving the defense time to get set so he’s either forced to take a bad shot, or drive, or pass to someone who is well covered. Thus them taking a bad shot. One pass or no pass. At least with IT you get 2+ passes before the shot.
I don’t know if I’m making much sense here.
Allbenji - February 18, 2012 via mobile
Seems like Mister Fourth Quarter ought to, you know, play in the fourth quarter.
It confuses me when Smart makes an inspired (if obvious) decision to play your point guard at point guard, but then buries him on the bench for long stretches, especially at the end of the game. Your breakdown really makes apparent what a lot of us were suspecting as we watched yesterday.
andy sims - February 18, 2012
Prince was killing us in the 2nd and 3rd quarters
It was about not having Tyreke or Thronton guarding Prince rather than having IT in the game. Although Prince only had one basket and 2 FT’s in the 4th, so that may have been a bad decision on Smarts part. Or, it could mean that Salmons did a great job defending him and only allowed 4 pts while Prince got 16pts in the 2nd & 3rd quarters.
HighTops - February 18, 2012
I agree with this.
As much as I enjoyed seeing IT in the starting lineup. Where was he in the 4th quarter? I understand somebody needed to guard Prince but at some point you have to stop changing around your lineup to match up with them, but instead make them match up to you.
Plus I feel that Reke can guard Prince just as well as Salmons can if Reke isn’t exhausted due to Smart overplaying him which is a whole different topic all together.
ridingthebench - February 19, 2012
I think Reke
can absolutely be a starting PG in this league. However, with the team setup the way it is now, I love the lineup of Thomas, Thornton, Evans, Thompson and Cousins. Thomas is a more pure PG than Reke, and I think this team needs that right now. Plus, gets Salmons off the floor. Also, I love having Reke’s passing ability at the 3.
Dub_TC - February 18, 2012
I like Tyreke getting the ball in the paint or moving into the paint
I want the defense worrying about the ball, and not watching Evans moving. Tyreke had 6 assists in the paint (5 at the rim) and 3 on long 2’s and 3’s. That’s the ratio of a good assist man like Nash. Tyreke’s career assist ratio is 2 in the paint and 3 on the long ball.
You don’t want Tyreke having to drive from the 3pt line, defenses close in on the paint and make passing impossible and getting to the rim unlikely. He can still do the things he already does as a 2, but having someone else dishing makes defenses defend more than just Tyreke and the Paint.
HighTops - February 18, 2012
I don't think IT was much (if any) edge on Reke as a point
he doesn’t see the floor that well either, but really does a great job of pushing the ball. If he refines his dribble a bit he will be even tougher to guard.
ElRonToro - February 18, 2012
IT is already better at getting in and out of the paint without picking up his dribble than anyone on the team
HighTops - February 18, 2012
Reke won't become a PG, maybe ever. A great player, yes.
Obviously, Reke is trying to play the part of a PG, but he’s a scorer by nature. The Kings are better off, and willl grow when Reke plays alongside a PG. Is IT that answer? Dont know, but I love that Smart is always on top of things. PG. Starting 3. Get the ball to Cuz.
amonk81 - February 18, 2012 via mobile
i love IT as a starter. wish he had played more in the 4th.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=b9SBpljSm2M
choderboat - February 18, 2012
Okay, I am confused by your story.
Maybe I need some reading comprehension classes.
My understanding of what you wrote is this:
Sounds like you are saying that by IT playing in the PG position he didn’t usurp Tyreke’s position of PG. Tyreke still remained the primary PG even though he played the SF position.
I interpreted the move differently. IT was listed as playing in the PG position, and it sure looked like that was the position he was playing. I could be wrong, since as you say, Smart didn’t really come out and clarify his move.
But correct me if I am wrong here, Smart’s description of “another ball-handler, with a decision-maker that can also get us up the court pretty quickly” sounds a lot like a PG to me.
It was an interesting set-up, one I personally was hoping Coach Smart would try. He did and the experiment seemed to work. IT sure looked like a PG to me. I was disappointed he didn’t go up with these guys in the fourth, but will be interesting to see if he makes the same fourth quarter call next time.
Slam_Dunk - February 18, 2012
Depends on the other teams lineup, Detroits back-court is pretty small
Knight & Gordon are 6-3 being very liberial with the tape measure, and Stuckey is 6-5.
We were still undersized as far as the matchups went. Thornton 6-4, Jimmer 6-2, and IT 5-?
Where we had a problem was that 6-6 Salmons and Evans were guarding 6-9 Prince who killed us with 16pts in the 2nd & 3rd quarters. In the Cleveland game the guards are mostly 6-3 and 6-6, and Casspi is 6-9, but not playing like Prince so maybe Tyreke on Casspi won’t be such a problem. Or will it?
HighTops - February 18, 2012
Okay, I see your point of having to take into account the matchups, which makes it difficult to
interpret exactly what Smart had in mind.
Slam_Dunk - February 18, 2012
Yep, sometime these coaches know what they're doing even when we don't see it.
Of course we’re all waiting to find out why he’s still playing Salmons. But, hopefully the answer will reveal itself when we near the trade deadline.
I know, I’m delusional sometimes.
HighTops - February 18, 2012
I think it's more
IT playing the PG position allows Tyreke somehow allows Tyreke to be more of a distributor. One point guard, multiple distributors is ideally how this should work out. Tyreke gets the ball in a position where he can either make a quick pass, set up a quick pass, drive, or shoot. And I guess because he’s not the one with the ball, he can see the floor, space, and players around him a bit better and plan out his moves before he gets the ball rather than trying to do it on the fly while dribbling and driving. At least that’s how I think it works. I’m not much of a basketball strategist.
jveezy - February 18, 2012
I agree with you completely and that is how I think this worked.
What I am saying and it sounds like you are too, IT was playing the PG position. Somehow, by freeing up Tyreke from this position (perhaps he is NaPG) he seems to become a better distributor, when certain expectations are taken off of him. That is certainly what happened last night. The conclusion I am drawing from this and perhaps it is too preliminary and too connected to the particular match-ups of this game is whether this is the foreboding of IT as our PG.
Slam_Dunk - February 18, 2012
Hmm...
Well, getting the ball up the court quicker by having IT move the ball allows the offense to initiate before the half court defense of the other team is set up.
This allows Evans to press the few defenders who have made it back and they don’t have enough people to both cover him and block the passing lanes. Thus, he can pass and get more assists.
It also helps that are bigs are running the floor. That seems to be a requirement to see floor time cause JJ didn’t run and got benched the rest of the game.
CowbellKings - February 18, 2012
Yes, agree.
Slam_Dunk - February 18, 2012
Much like Beno and Reke
they are both more like 1.5s than anything. I did not see Reke’s role diminish as ball handler much, if at all. I will however rather have any four of lasy night’s starters handle the ball over MT.
Not only does he have a very loose hand handle, he gets his points easier on cacth and shoots or catch and drives as they rush at him. I do not think he gets his best shots off when he does a lot of bouncing.
Since he is not really above (or in some cases at) average as a passer, rebounder, ball handler or defender my judgement is still out on until he proves himself a lights out shooter.
Right now I grade him out as a C…which on this team ties him for 3rd best player, unfortunately
ElRonToro - February 18, 2012
I agree with much of what you say, Ron
but I see IT closer to a 1 and Tyreke something else ( 2 or 3). I have a hard time wrapping my head around Tyreke being a 1 because for the most part I don’t think he does a really go job at it. He seems to do a lot better if someone else like Beno or IT is handling the ball at that position. I agree with you about MT. He came in last season and wooed us, but his skills have been a little shakier this season. He seems like he is predominantly a shooter, but he has his fair share of off nights. I still like his moxie though, when he is on. Agree. He is our third best player.
Slam_Dunk - February 18, 2012
I like elron's "1.5 + 1.5 = a 1 & 2" theory
Reke & Thronton are a 1.5 + 2
I still would like to see MT23 as a sixth man. With a good 1 or 1.5 paired with Reke & a legit small forward. IT, MT23, & Reke will work for now though.
Hopefully in the offseason we can add DJ Augustine and either Nic Batum or Wilson Chandler. Back up plan being maybe Andre Miller/Ray Felton & AK47
Allbenji - February 18, 2012 via mobile
Its my belief that streak shooters should not be starters
They can miss-shoot you out of a game in the first quarter. When they come off the bench, bring them in as a gunner, If they are hot they stay in, if they are cold you yank them quickly. Thornton shooting wise is a lot like Bobby, without the D to keep him in if the O isn’t working.
I think when Fredette is coming off the bench he needs to ramp up the gunner mentality a bit.
ElRonToro - February 18, 2012
Let's see if I can explain this right
I like how the team looks with another ball handler who can run the offense from the start and let Tyreke play off the ball some. At the same time, I don’t think we can get away with Tyreke defending the 3 consistently. I just don’t think he can, game in and out, defend the Rudy Gays, Kevin Durants, Carmelo Anthonys or even the Richard Jeffersons and Tayshaun Princes of the league.
Ideally, we could fill the 3 spot with a longer and better defender Marcus Thorton. If we can get a shooter (like MT) and defender at the SF position, then the team can move Thorton to the bench and start Reke with another good ball handler, even as small as IT, in the backcourt.
I just don’t think long term you can have Tyreke or Marcus defend the SFs in the league, even if it works some offensively.
edm7 - February 18, 2012
If I had my choice I would partner Reke with
a 6’5" or taller PG that is a great ball handler, passer and good shooter or a 6’6" or taller SG who is a lights out shooter and decent BH.
MT IT or JF would fit on the court with either.
Your assignment (StR) if you choose to accept is to go out and find one, preferably about 25 or so. Much like our team in the fourth quarter, this meassage will self destruct in 5…4..3
ElRonToro - February 18, 2012
I've thought the same thing
Like I don’t know, Brandon Knight or Klay Thompson. (Sigh.)
blknblu - February 19, 2012
I second ed's emotion
section214 - February 18, 2012
I like this train of thought.
And I heartily endorse Donte!
Tom Ziller - February 19, 2012
I would love for that guy to be Donte
and yes, he would fit the description.
edm7 - February 19, 2012
Not sure if this warrants another thread or not but Rondo may be on the block
http://www.hoopsrumors.com/2012/02/celtics-initiating-rondo-trade-talks.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter Tyreke for Rondo: I’d do that trade in a New York minute.
deadenddude - February 18, 2012
I would want Rondo & Pierce
If I’m trading away my future(Reke) for the now(Rondo) then I want to make the playoffs now. Rondo alone isn’t getting us there with our massive hole at small forward.
Give them Reke, Jimmer, JJ, & Whiteside for Rondo & Pierce.
Allbenji - February 18, 2012 via mobile
I'd rather trade Thornton than Jimmer
but I do like the idea of getting Rondo and Pierce. Rondo/Pierce/Cousins could be a pretty formidable trio. And Rondo is young enough to build around with cousins long term after Pierce retires.
deadenddude - February 18, 2012
Jimmer still hasn't found his way
MT23 is a legit threat at the 2 already. We are already trading away the future for the now so why keep Jimmer over MT?
Allbenji - February 18, 2012 via mobile
Because I pretty much know what Thornton is at this point
a one dimensional hot/cold gunner. I don’t know what Jimmer can/will be yet. I’d like to see where he’s at after two seasons. I think he’ll be at least as good a player as Thornton but could easily end up being better.
deadenddude - February 18, 2012
I guess we'll just agree to disagree on that one
At this point I’m kinda sick of potential. I want proven guys. No more waiting 4 years for Donte to become Rashard Lewis only to find out we’d be lucky if he becomes Rasual Butler.
Allbenji - February 18, 2012 via mobile
And Jimmer doesn't have 1/2 the physical tools as Donte
And he’s about the same age
Allbenji - February 18, 2012 via mobile
I hear ya about being sick of hearing about potential
but I feel like Jimmer hasn’t really had a fair shot yet. He’s was thrown into a mess of a team that doesn’t know if they want him to be a SG or PG, he’s already on his 2nd coach, etc. I’d just like to see how he does in a stable system with a defined role before shipping him out.
deadenddude - February 18, 2012
If you are giving up on potential
then after trading all the potential you better have 2 star+ vets and a number of really really good vets or you will be stuck in mediocrity for the 4 year window you will have before the rebuild starts
ElRonToro - February 19, 2012
That's the idea
Allbenji - February 19, 2012 via mobile
The only potential I'm close to ready to give up on is Tyreke
and I’m not quite ready to give up on him yet. but realistically, next year will be his fourth season. If he isn’t showing improvement by then you have to start figuring odds are he never will and that the best he’s ever going to be is an inconsistent 17 5 and 5 player with low basketball IQ.
deadenddude - February 20, 2012
For most players that would be a good thing.
Expectations are a bitch sometimes. I believe he will get better though.
raiderking21 - February 20, 2012
Salmons is not as billed
He was supposed to be able to pass and help the offense move, according to the Kings when they brought him back and despite most fans protesting otherwise. Seems more and more like a fairytale story.
He was supposed to be able to spread the floor and make shots from the outside, but shoots so bad that other teams should be encouraging him to shoot from the 3. We get enough of that with Tyreke and don’t need two such players on the floor at the same time.
He was supposed to be a veteran leader, but most fans understood he is not even close to that. He is a introvert and his enthusiasm level is corpse-like.
He was not supposed to be a liability, but is one and should not start playing this poorly.
It is really hard to tell if this an indictment of Tyreke or really one about Salmons and his AWFUL playing. Seeing as he got benched…
CowbellKings - February 18, 2012
Salmons is not as billed and you can never go back home again...
This is not about Tyreke. This is about Salmons and Petrie.
Salmons was a very good player when he was here, but players were traded for a lot of different reasons. Some were for salary dumps as part of the Maloof saga. At any rate, Salmons was traded. Perhaps Petrie had some regrets. Who knows.
For whatever reason, Petrie brought him back. Perhaps he was thinking of Salmons playoff performances for the Bulls:
It was very difficult to see John Salmons get traded and then go on to perform like this. I found it very hard to watch him, even though I was happy for his success with the Bulls.
Well we all know what happened. Petrie brought him back, traded off Beno without an established upgrade at the PG spot. It is always risky to trade off a player then bring him back at a later date. But, Petrie decided to do just that.
This has nothing to do with Tyreke. It has everything to do with Salmons and Petrie.
Slam_Dunk - February 18, 2012
John has done a lot of what we were hoping for when he came back
He is not pounding the ball anywhere near as much and he has reduced his shot volume to a nice number. He also works very hard on defense. His problem is that his D is not as good as it used to be, His FG% started declining last year which leads me to believe he has either gotten old or he just can’t get his offense in a flow unless he pounds the rock and shoots a lot.
He seems to be trying hard to be the guy we wanted, he is just not succeeding.
ElRonToro - February 18, 2012
When it goes it usually goes quick.
One year you can play. The next year these young kids are eating you alive.
Lotusprime - February 18, 2012 via mobile
Ron, I agree that John does seem to be trying; I don't think he is trying to sabotage or
perform poorly in a passive-aggressive manner, but I agree that he has not been succeeding.
You give him more credit than I do. He has had a couple of games where he has performed fairly well, but for the most part I think his performance on the floor has a been a disappointment. He does work hard on D and I suspect this is why Smart extends him the minutes that he does, but as you say he is not as good as he once was. I am unsure whether his age can account for all of this, as he isn’t all that old at 32 years of age.
Slam_Dunk - February 18, 2012
32 in basketball years
Is completely different than 32 in people years.
Lotusprime - February 19, 2012 via mobile
That makes John 4.75 in dog years.
Slam_Dunk - February 19, 2012
Now starting for your Sacramento Kings
At small forward from Madame Frou Frou’s All England Breeding Club, Kennel, and Whole Dog Food Emporium…John Salmons.
Lotusprime - February 19, 2012 via mobile
John Salmons has been in the doghouse lately...
…but Coach Smart assures everyone he still has a lot of bark left in him. Every dog likes to play with his balls, so let’s see what John has in store for fans tonight.
Slam_Dunk - February 19, 2012
A Bouvier des Flandres
best dog I ever had.
Salmons put himself in the dog house. He has been given ample opportunity to justify his minutes and his game play has eroded his claim.
betweentheeyes - February 19, 2012
Agree. Salmons has himself to blame.
I caught part of the Westminster Kennel Club 136th Annual Dog Show. Some amazing animals in that show.
Slam_Dunk - February 19, 2012
Agree its probably not age
I don’t think his offense can function at career levels unless he’s allowed to pound the ball and create his shots…..he is miscast in an offense that has 3 better options DMC Reke and MT.
Normally you would make hime the off the bench go to guy but he has resisted this role in the past. Its up to John, but I would look to a team in search of a veteren and not need much in return.
ElRonToro - February 19, 2012
That is a good point.
He probably is miscast and the team has completely changed its roster since he was last here. He is having to find himself as the older veteran among a group of young upstarts. Not really an enviable position to find oneself at this point in his career.
Slam_Dunk - February 19, 2012
Evans is playing a great distributing SF
It’s worked more than once this season. Like I said on the post game analysis. Having a true PG bringing the ball up t6eh court frees Evans to get into better position. But saying the success in qtrs one and two was all because of Thomas is ignoring the fact that Salmons and Hayes played a good most of the 2nd and fourth quarters. That’s removing two of your scorers. So it may not be as much that IT made everything happen as that we have no scoring punch off the bench except Jimmer.
SavageBeast - February 19, 2012
And strangely enough
Donte. If only he were more consistant.
Lotusprime - February 19, 2012 via mobile
Good point!
SavageBeast - February 19, 2012
At this point, without a trade
and with the crap we have at SF, I would go with the current starting line up and go with Donte (if he promises to keep RBing like he has) and TH as the SFs.
We know Vets Salmons Garcia and Outlaw have failed completely this year.
ElRonToro - February 19, 2012
I agree with the sentiment in principle
Free Donte is fine – another guy who has had opportunity and is starting to converge on his potential v. actual performance graph. At the end of this season, if Donte continues to be inconsistent than he is a taller version of Cisco Garcia who makes jolly videos.
In other words, not a starter.
I would prefer to see more Honeycutt minutes – the Kings have an overabundance of inconsistent SFs (it is all they have at the moment)
betweentheeyes - February 19, 2012
Donte plays with more energy than Salmons & JJ
Half of Donte’s minutes have been at PF. That’s were most of his rebounding is coming from, but his defense is the same. He’s still the same guy that we used to defend Carmello and Kobe.
His consistency can be layed right at the feet of PW who forced him to be a stay at home defender and 3pt shooter. I’m still hoping that more minutes and the coaching of English will open up his game. In the meantime, he’s the best non-guard at running or finishing the break.
HighTops - February 19, 2012
I hope he is a big for the Kings who understands that he needs to run
and run alot, particularly with Thomas in the game.
betweentheeyes - February 21, 2012
He more consistent than Salmons
HighTops - February 19, 2012
I see it more of a dual-PG style like Denver played until recently
which was brought on by our incompetence at the SF position, not at our PG position.
caseycheesecake - February 19, 2012
This is it exactly
If we had anything that approached a C- SF , IT or MT would be voltage off the bench
ElRonToro - February 19, 2012
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